yay less lazy now!! i feel kinda weird being like LOOK YOU GUYS AT THIS INTERNET FIGHT I GOT INTO, but also i am not particularly bitter against any of these people and am mainly just disappointed the poplist doesn’t wanna talk about feminism and music with me.
first of all, if you would like to read all of these messages without my commentary, please check here, subject line “indie guitar.”
context: people decide to list favorite guitarists. favorite guitarists are almost all dudes. this gets called out, mostly-dude list continues. gets called out again by people including me, quasi-poplist fight ensues.
so anyways, a lot of the following responses are directed towards kirsten, who posted this:
this is just the same old dumb rock-ist sexist boy garbage that has been kicking around since the beginning of time, and the same old conversation that has been on the poplist a million times. nothing changes, and that is really too bad. i am reminded of this mid-90s olympia fanzine i was reading recently that had an article written by some dude about riot grrrl in which he argues that the reason he hates music made by women is because it is boring to him. if women could just make music like throbbing gristle, he would be satisfied... matthew e., i think you are saying that you are against indie guitar "affirmative action", but i am all for it. women have been systematically discriminated against in all kinds of music. this is why fantastic organizations like the rock camp for girls exists. i taught at the girl's rock camp in portland in 2002, and it was an incredible experience. girls DO need special encouragement to play rock music (or be scientists or applied statisticians or whatever) in a world that wants very much to take a giant crap on them. christ, *i* am not even complaining about the indie guitar hero lists, though i do agree that they were mostly boring. i WAS complaining about matthew's comment that he felt inconvenienced by katy's complaint: "i just don't know why everything has to become a thing." xo,k.
SO YEAH. she basically said what i was thinking, except angrier. i disagree mainly with her directing it at matthew, whose only real problematic statement was the last thing she mentioned.
so i was initially trying to combine all the responses i thought were fucked up, until i realized they were all from the same person. so here you go… he starts with a “joke”
Typical uppity woman. Am I right?
umm so even the rest of the poplist called this one out, but JUST SAYIN.
then of course there was this:
While Matthew clarified his take below, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with having a safe little bubble-- not in a head in the sand sort of way, but if you're having a stressful day and want to talk about the twee-est cereal mascot while scannign your inbox (Trix bunny vs sugar crisp bear anyone?), well, that's okay too
so i mean of course safe spaces are important BUT it seems like this guy was arguing that it’s important to have a safe space for straight white males to be oppressive. his clarification didn’t really make me think i was wrong, either…
With regards to the having a safe little bubble, I think it is okay to have an arena where we don't challenge ourselves-- for some it may be Angry Birds or fantasy baseball, while for others it is lighthearted chatter about music. There may be a lawyer that works CHINs cases or counselors who provide services for abused women or activists fighting for gay rights-- or anyone dealing with goofy office politics anywhere-- and they may look to the list for nothing more than a pleasant distraction. They may not be up for participating in the politicization their happy place and (within reason) I don't see anything wrong with that.
OKAY SO BASICALLY what this is arguing, or at least what i took from it, is that because someone actively stops oppression in their day-to-day life, they deserve to not have to challenge it in their free time. what the fuck!! for one, i assume someone that is more aware of oppression is way more likely to try to fight it in all areas and not just TAKE A BREAK because they DON’T WANT TO CHALLENGE THEMSELVES. “OH I DON’T WANT TO CHECK MY PRIVILEGE IT IS MY FREE TIME I DO NOT WANNA CHALLENGE MYSELF!!”
he kind of kept using some weird unapt metaphors like
I'm working under a couple, I think realistic, assumptions: that people are limited in their capacity to fight every battle and that people seek out distractions. Taking a walk in the woods isn't irresponsible just because you could instead be using that time collecting signatures to advocate against deforestation. It does not excuse willful ignorance or a complete abdication of responsibility-- you can't go stomping through some protected wildlife refuge and you should sign the petition-- but if a walk is all you're seeking to clear your head and it becomes more than that (you can't see the forest for the pleas or somethin' heh), and you're in the need of some calm, you'll seek it somewhere else.
which doesn’t work, of course, because there’s a big difference in checking yr privilege and you know, CONSTANTLY DOING ALL YOU CAN TO SAVE THE WOOOOOORLD~~~ and that’s pretty self explanatory. he also continues on the comparison to playing angry birds, which is equally as bad a comparison as the WALK IN THE FOREST, because for one, both don’t involve other people you are potentially being jerks to.
lastly, this point:
Those concerned about the male dominance of the guitarist list could simply start a new thread titled something along the lines of "Favorite Women Guitarists" (perhaps while acknowledging the unfortunate need to start such a list). If doing so provides inspiration for women entering the music scene or creates a better awareness of women already established, it may be be worthwhile. I just feel like some of the anger is misdirected (which is *not* to be confused with misguided-- the passion is wonderful). I disagree that everyone who participated is somehow guilty of the "same old dumb rock-ist sexist boy garbage"...
because CLEARLY CLEARLY the solution to the original problem is make a “favorite guitarists” and a “favorite WOMEN guitarists” list. because men are standard and women are other!!!!
and the whole thing is kind of pissing me off cause the rest of the list right now is just ignoring conflict but like IN THIS CASE FACING CONFLICT IS IMPORTANT!! like, it’s good! facing conflict is acknowledging sexism, and this dude probably just thinks everyone is agreeing with him by being quiet or saying they want people to stop fighting. and in actuality, they kind of are…
i really hope this has been entertaining and not ridiculously boring. i think tumblr tricked me into thinking everyone who’s into indiepop wants to talk about the politics behind it.
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- dreamstates said:"because men are standard and women are other!!!!" this this this especially
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